EP01 - The Merger

Hello everybody. Welcome to Out of the Office. This is a podcast exploring the lessons learned from the hit TV show The US Office, and it's all about how we can create a more diverse and inclusive workplace.

Now, I'm Sara Chandran, I'm the Founder of Fresh and Fearless, and I'll be hosting all of these episodes from Out of the Office and we'll delve into the world of Dunder Mifflin and examine the different kinds of content and the scenarios presented throughout the series.

Now we're going to analyse how the show highlights the ways that we can not run an office and how we can actually use that as a learning to respect diversity, foster inclusion and create a more positive workplace environment.

So, whether you're a fan of the office or just interested in learning more about creating a more inclusive workplace, this podcast is for you. you. So grab your favourite Dundie Award and tune in to out of the office.

So my very first guest for the show is Sharn, who I’ll welcome up on the stage now. Sharn, would you like to just introduce yourself for our listeners? 

Thanks, Sara. 

Hello, I'm Sharn. I am head of people for a tech startup, and well, I love what you do and, you know, the work you do in this in this space, so to incorporate that and what a better TV show to use as an example because yeah, which we'll get into I'm sure but great combination. 

Do you know how many times as you've rewatched the series? How many times you've seen it?

Um, I don't think I can I think I think I genuinely get to the end and then just restart it. And the other thing is, I'm actually watching it at the moment by myself, as I always do, but also with my husband, who's watching it for the first time. 

And so I don't know what series, I mean, he's just coming up to, you know. I don't wanna say it in case there's spoilers, but I think he's coming up to a big wedding in the series. 

It's just brilliant, but I just don't think I could say, and I'm sure there are people out there who've watched it a million more times than I have, and there's always that moment where somebody quotes from the office, and you're like yeah yeah you um what about you how many times have you watched it?

I genuinely can't count I think I started watching it in like 2018, 2017 maybe, and I binged watched it and then I was like, oh, I'm really sad it's over, and I was like, I wonder if I can just start again and I did and then I just haven't stopped doing that.

So every time I get to that final episode, I literally just go back like you do and watch the video from the beginning. I don't know about you, but I always put it on in the background as well when I'm doing which is probably how I most often watch it.

So the good thing about that is every time you really watch it, you see something new, or you hear something new because the last time you were watching it, you're probably hanging out your washing and running to get something from the washing machine so that's the other thing I love about it. They're so short, right they're 20, 25 minutes, so I obviously watch like seven in a row.

Yeah, very, very easy to binge. So let's talk about the episode that we're going to be talking about, which is the merger episode, which is a really interesting one because we've got Scranton, which is where the main kind of bulk of the US office show is recorded it's based on the Scranton office with Michael Scott as the kind of regional manager and through all the changes that go through in Dunder Mifflin they start to merge with Stamford, the Stamford branch and there's quite a few instances throughout this episode.

So as these two branches are merging, Michael Scott, who, if you've seen the show, is quite challenging, he's quite a funny but also a difficult character in terms of the ways that he thinks he's making the right decision.

So he kind of unintentionally creates this kind of “Them and Us” vibe. He's doing his best to try to merge the two groups together in one kind of identity. But actually, I think he kind of ostracizes the groups from one another, and it kind of makes the situation worse that they end up hating each other so much more.

So I think we're gonna just quickly watch a little clip from this episode. And we'll have this shown for everybody as well so you can watch it with us. And then we'll dive into what we think. 

The official merger day, all family, welcome breakfast. Come on in. Hey, Champagne. No, no, guests only. It's not salad. No, for the guests it is. For you, consider it cow meat. Strictly taboo. I eat beef. Well, then consider it poison beef. It's no touchy. - The beef is poison. No, it's not, just sit down, please. Welcome, help yourself. I might want these orientations. materials. Yeah. 

So as we saw from that clip, Michael Scott and a couple of the characters that come in that want to help themselves, to the champagne and to the beef and to all the kind of treats that are on the table aren't able to. And they're the part of the Scranton office. And who are allowed to touch the treats and eat the breakfast are the Stamford employees.

Sharn, I'd love to hear your first impressions.

Right, in ways like what a lovely gesture he wants to put on this lovely breakfast. He wants to welcome everybody, but he completely alienates the people that are already working there,  but invites them into the breakfast room right so invites them to come in and stands there and essentially watch everyone else eat, and sort of publicly tells them off for even going near the food, and you know he gives them the goodie bags he's got everybody's name tags and everything, and I think that's brilliant because he really wants to make the effort but it needs to go beyond just sort of a breakfast a name tag there's no conversation there's no inclusion here for both of the teams, and that's where everything falls apart so you know the breakfast the goodie bag the name tags great ideas but that's that's all he's kind of thought about he's not thought about anything beyond that. Like how is it going to work beyond that? How am I going to get these two groups together? And that's what, um, yeah, that's where he falls short, unfortunately, as he often does.

He does often, for sure. It's, uh, it's quite, yeah, some people that I've spoken to about the show that watch it, they're cringing at Michael Scott because they're like, I just can't believe it. And I'm like, I feel like this happens in workplaces, maybe not to the same degree, because obviously, this is for the media effect. 

But in terms of mergers, you do get managers that almost maybe focus on one group over another and actually work against the very aspect of what they're intending to do, which is to bring together those two groups. So reflecting on the actions that Michael took when he had the Goody bags for Stamford, which I think would just feel like pencils. It wasn't like anything amazing in there, but the gesture is still there. And then obviously obviously creating this breakfast. Do you think it's a case of he could have had goodie bags for the Scranton employees and got them the breakfast themselves, or is his approach just completely kind of missing the mark, and maybe there should have been a different approach that he could have taken?
I think, yeah, who doesn't love a goodie bag? We always give our new starters goodie bags, and we love it. We want them to shout about it. But again poorly executed. What could he have done? He could have involved both of the groups, you know, had a conversation with both the existing and the new team to, I don't know, perhaps buddy them up, you know, how good would that be so you haven't got this divide to create, you know, if I was Michael, which, you know, now would be a good time actually to bring out my world's best boss.

Oh my goodness, I forgot the icebreaker question. It sat there waiting; this is actually given to me by a people coordinator who relocated earlier this year and noticed how obsessed I am with my best mug.

I love that, I need one of those mugs. Obviously, you have the world's best mug, the best boss mug. If you were to have a world's best something mug, what would you all say? Internet detective. 

Please elaborate. It's just used for pure, I want to say gossip, pure drama. It's when you're on Instagram. I don't really use a lot of social media, but I use Instagram. When you're scrolling through Instagram, and you notice that somebody who I don't know was in a long-term relationship or was married isn’t posting pictures with that person anymore. When did this breakup happen? And I just want to get to the details. I’m pretty good at figuring that out. I’ve managed to suss out a lot of breakups. 

Like, I always think, who is that person saying, oh, Ariana Grande lost 50,000 followers after her, you know, misdemeanour? I'm like, I would probably be good at that job because I would be able to find out what they did. So yeah, shameless internet detective. It's not a good one, Sara, but it's who I am.

I feel like those skills are useful and I feel like a lot of people probably would need that in their lives for various things. Obviously, most of the time, it is looking up people who have broken up with people or like someone's dating somebody and like is this, 'cause there's like so much that goes on in the dating world and it's like, who is this person and how do I find out if they're legit or not? And everyone needs an internet detective in their life. It's very needed for protection.

There you go. Now you know who to come to if you wanna find out if somebody's broken up. Please. 

(laughing) Oh my goodness, I hadn't even thought about it. I'll have to come back to you. I'll have to come back to you at the end. I never thought someone would ask me that question. I was like, obviously, being a podcast host, you ask all the questions, you don't have to answer any, but now the pressure's on.

That's when you speak to somebody who's in a people role. 

Ask the questions back, and get to know you. Yeah. - Yeah.

So yeah, talking about the people around, one of the biggest clips that happens is, there's a part where Michael Scott put all the Stamford employees on chairs on top of tables. And then you've got all the Scranton employees sat on the floor and he's like, "This is to demonstrate that we're all equal." And one of the Scranton employees is like, "Surely we should all be sat at the same level "if that's what you're trying to insinuate." 

And there's a clip where Martin, one of the characters from the Stanford office, walks in and is quite large. So in terms of getting up on the table and sitting on the chair, it's not going to be a pretty easy thing for him to do. And Michael's like, we'll help you get up there. And obviously, this is just layered on all the other things that's happened in terms of Michael Scott's shortcomings with just making the Stanford employees feel really at odds with him as a manager. Him as someone to kind of support them in this new office, and subsequently, Martin's like, look, I can't do this anymore. I quit. I have to quit. And then you see Michael just like, he does have a tendency to act like a child, like throwing his toys out of the pram. He just has this knee-jerk reaction he's like you can't do that, and then he essentially says you know you're fired, and it's just this whole spiral of nonsense that happens as a result of what's gone on in this particular scene. I'd love to just kind of open up with that particular scene and get your perspective on it, Sharn, because yeah, it's a tricky one, that one.

Yeah, I mean, nonsense is the best word to describe that because it is. Michael is the first person to point out somebody's physical appearance. Be the first person to make a joke. So to be so desperate to make this thing work, elevating the Stamford branch to make them seem equal, which is bonkers. 

The fact that he responds to him, where he doesn’t make note of his physical appearance, which is so often the case, he’s the first to make quips about how someone looks, and he’s so desperate to make it work. And he’s forcing him up on the table whilst this employee is desperately trying to get away from him. And Michael isn’t listening, and for me, it’s about that feedback piece.

We’ve all had managers who want to make things work and want to do things a certain way and don’t think about the impact that’s going to have to employees as a whole or individuals.

It’s that definition of insanity, isn’t it? You keep doing the same thing. He’s so desperate to make it work that he’s not willing to listen to why it doesn't make sense. Shouldn’t we be on the same level? Is this even going to be possible? There’s perseverance here. His way is the way to do it. 

I think, for me, It’s about feedback. It’s about listening to your employees and about listening to what their opinions are, how they think something can work. 

And I think especially in workplaces today, I’m hearing a lot of people talking about the workplaces they love, and I speak as one of those people, where the senior management are the first to admit when they haven't done something right or the first to listen to feedback, because they talk about hiring people who are experts in their field, you know, and then you've got the other side where you've got a CEO, a CTO, or whoever it might be, and hire all this incredible talent, yet just refuse to listen to them when they go, "Maybe this piece of tech isn't right, or maybe we shouldn't be hiring for this role, or maybe the market needs this direction or this piece of work..." so it’s about trusting and listening to employees and not just thinking that your way is the best way. 

And I think, you know, that’s where he goes wrong, yet again, the intention is there, he wants to try and demonstrate he’s the world’s best boss, but really he’s just not listening, he’s not listening to the noise and chaos that’s going on around him and when the reaction is ‘I’m leaving, I quit’, his response is ‘well, you’re fired’. And that’s another example of why do people leave, why do great employees leave the workplace or leave the business and is because they aren’t being listened to, their ideas are not being heard, whether that’s because of the way in which the company should, not necessarily run, but the way the team should work, and when managers don’t listen to their team that’s when people leave, and his response is to continue, “OK well bye, I’m going to continue with what I’m trying to do here which is badly integrate”

The thing is, it’s called the “integration celebration”, and there’s no integration going on, which is I'm sure, ironically named.

It's interesting because there's that saying isn't there where it's like people don't leave organisations, they leave bad managers, and that's very much what happens in this particular scenario that you know people are pushed past their breaking point, feedback isn't listened to. So the only other option is to leave, and I think if you have a high turnover in the organisation and that's high turnover is particularly like so many wonderful people that brought so much greatness to the organisation, it's usually an indication that something, in terms of the culture and the management that isn't responding very well because I guess if managers were more receptive to feedback, if in that scenario Michael Scott was receptive to hearing what was you know being said by Stanford and Scranton maybe the situation might have unfolded differently, you know, maybe that integration celebration could have been an open, collaborative discussion of what are the issues here and what could we do to make this a more seamless, collaborative kind of merge of two companies, a bit more comfortable, and yeah, made it more of that integration celebration for sure.

Yeah, rather than that physical level of difference you can eat this food versus you can't eat this food. I actually like, years and years and years ago, when I worked, I was working in retail as probably everyone did at some point in their life. If you didn't, you're the lucky ones, but I remember we had two stores on, you know, Kings Road in Chelsea, and they closed one of the stores down and merged that team over. The manager in that store was more senior than me, and I was the manager in the other store, so very much a Jim and Michael situation later on in the series where they both become managers. And there was this real divide. The manager from the other store was so clearly dishing favouritism to the other store, and it was so unbearable to watch, and you know, as someone who had a manager above them, it was so painful to watch and so painful to experience, and yeah, I blocked a big chunk of that time out of my life, and that’s how to do it badly to just not integrate people, and continue to see them as two different groups and not one group. 

It’s interesting you mention about the roles in terms of that merger. In this particular episode , we see Dwight Schrute, one of the Scranton employees, asking Michael to clarify who's more senior out of him and Andy Bernard, who's come over from Stamford because they've got very similar sounding titles.

And I think Michael's like, it doesn't matter, is it irrelevant, like he just kind of is a throwaway comment, which just leaves both Dwight and Andy in this, I mean, their butting heads, I don't feel like they ever see eye to eye. I mean, later on in the series they share a woman. woman, I'll ever be happy with one another. But yeah, I think that's a huge thing in terms of mergers, you know, you just get all these different titles that worked within those respective organisations, come together, and suddenly there's this confusion, there's this lack of clarity, whereas the hierarchy, who reports to who, and that can be really unsettling and really upsetting, and depending on how the individual sees that role they might perceive themselves as more senior than the other person, but the flip could be true for the other person who sees them more senior. And then you get all this kind of clashing of decision-making and the culture, people pay the price for that kind of mix-up, don't they? 

Yeah, yeah, I think he makes some comment like it doesn't matter, it's irrelevant, it just matters what you're paid, which is just, you know, pay again. I know it’s very tongue-in-cheek, but moving that into the modern-day workplace. How old is the Office again? That was Season 3, yeah it’s quite an early one. In the modern day, working in a tech company, different titles mean different things, very much like Dwight and Andy, mean different things depending on the organisation you’ve come from. A lead engineer in one place could mean something completely different in comparison to a bigger or smaller company. That would never work if we brought people in to our workplace and just assumed that they were going to bring the responsibility or level of responsibilities from their other roles. You need to make sure a conversation has been had with the new employees and existing team so they can understand, yes we’re bringing someone with lead in their titles and yes I know you’ve got lead in your title, but this is how it’s going to work so it’s harmonious. 

You have to bring new and existing employees into the conversation if you’ve got any chance of making things work. Particularly for us in a remote world, because you don’t get interaction Monday to Friday, nine to five. And again, you know, it's like we discussed that's where he goes wrong. He doesn't bring the two people together. I love that he says off camera, you know, to the camera where he's like, Andy Bernard, that guy is a stand-up fella. And it's because he sees himself in him right when they're at the beginning with the goodie bags. And you realise how alike they are. are and that's why he used it so much so having that comment to the camera is brilliant because obviously, he ends up slowly hating him, which most of us do I'm sorry I know that's probably another topic where Andy Bernard is, oh yeah. 

I think do you know what I think the similarity between Michael Scott and Andy Bernard is that they're both deeply insecure characters, and they seek that approval from those around them. Whereas, I think Michael Scott seeks that approval from everybody in the office, and he tries to like, you know, do things that are quite like misses the mark. Andy Bernard is just focused on getting Michael Scott's approval, and I think that comes from, you know, the dad complex of like, you know, you find out later that Andy has quite a tricky relationship with his own family.

So he almost looks to Michael Scott as that father figure and wants that approval and wants him to look at him in a particular way. Yeah, it's really interesting, and that kind of deep insecurity plays off onto the other characters, and they just can't see any connection, and they struggle because it doesn't come across as sincere, right? There's no genuine interaction there because it is a self-serving effort to just kind of build their own ego and protect their own self -esteem. 

Yeah, it's funny because you mentioned that about Andy's dad because Michael keeps talking in this episode about being a family like we're a family welcome to the family, and our families are merger right families are so dysfunctional so it's like some and we've all again worked somewhere where somebody said you know it's like a family and um yeah that's not always, red flag, because you then start thinking, especially in today's day, go, right, is that a good thing? Do I want my workplace to be my family? But for Michael, it's everything he craves. He just, and, you know, as you say, Andy just wants Michael's approval. As does Dwight, but Dwight will, at the drop of a hat, think about himself. We’ve seen episodes where he backstabs Michael and does his laundry for years. Because he goes around him, or over his head, whatever. So many times that Michael talks about family, family family, he thinks it’s a good thing, and yeah, like you say, that's a red flag because of how dysfunctional families can be.

Yeah, the only person that's not in Michael Scott's family is Toby. So, for those that don't know, Toby is the HR guy within the Scranton office and Toby gets a hard time of it from Michael Scott.

Do you find that in like people roles and with like HR teams there is like a divide, conflict or butting of heads between senior management and those departments? 

Do you know what I think the best thing my CEO did when he appointed me was making me head of people and not head of HR because then I’m always the first to go, “I’m People, not HR”. Because I think watching this series when I moved into the head of people role, whereas before I was in talent acquisition and talent management, you do feel for Toby. He’s just trying to do the right thing all the time and do it properly unlike Michael who’s trying to do the right thing poorly. I do feel more and more for Toby as I went into this role. 

When you’re in the HR function, you’re seen as an addition to the team. I’ve found that in a people role, you are the team. I joined the business three years ago, coming up to three years, and I was the first non-exec member of the team, and now we’ve grown to around about 25 and in a people role, you’re building the culture, you’re building out what the values are , how this company is going to live and breathe. 

HR typically is the go-to when you've got a problem. And don't get me wrong. People still come to me when they've got a problem or when something isn't quite right. But, you know, the people element makes it more human, which is interesting because HR, literally the first word, is human. So HR, all the backbone, they get stuff done. So they keep things ticking over. But Because people take the piss out of HR so much, but the more I’m seeing roles coming up with are Head of People, Head of Culture, Head of Development. Or people-focused roles rather than HR, and huge number of businesses are making that shift now. I imagine a lot of people are looking to receive accreditation or award that makes them the employer of choice, and they are probably looking at that HR people function, to say how can we make this a great place to work, what do people care about, and how can we make it more about the people and the employees. 

Yeah, poor HR, poor Toby, he gets such a bad rep, and he's just trying to help. And he loves Pam, but she doesn't love him back. So much love there for Pam.

And actually, what's interesting about the merger episode is and Toby's quite softly spoken. I think he kind of recoils into himself because of Michael's behaviours. But everybody from the Stanford office can't help but praise Toby for everything that he's helped. Toby's been nothing but supportive and friendly and really informative because, you know, he's given them the clarity of here's what you're supposed to do. This is what's going on. Whereas Michael Scott's like just scrambling and putting people on the tables. Toby's actually giving the information that people want in those times of big change. Like a merger is really unsettling. It's like, am I gonna be here? Am I not gonna be here? Who are these new people? Am I going to create friendships? Am I not? What's the culture? Who's the manager? And if you've got this really kind of problematic manager, you know, you probably do look to HR or the people team to kind of give you that clarity and support that, you know, is needed in those times. 

Oh my god, absolutely. And there's actually a moment just, I think it's just before Michael shows that video of him and Dwight, which is so hilarious. And when Toby comes in with his binder, and we've got to do this orientation, and I'm like, Oh, no, I don't want to do this orientation. And that is, that is the role of HR, isn't it? Because I'm giving people this information, and Michael just wants to be fun. And that's why managers should just leave onboarding to the professionals. One of the things I’ll do at the end of the first week, end of the first two weeks, end of the first month, sitting down with that new employee and asking them, whether through a merger or a new hire, how was your onboarding? Did we give you too much to do? Did we not give you enough? What do you need to know? Those check-in points, they are very informal, are so important because if you fail to address those, I am not looking at it you’re in this role, it’s more from a holistic perspective, from a people perspective how have you settled in, how are you finding it, do you physically have everything you need, all the tools you need to do your job and sometimes managers fail to do that because they just want to get so much off their plate onto their new employee's plate that they forget to do those check-ins and that’s where HR and people, that’s why all of these new Stanford lot are praising Toby, I’m really tooting the HR horn here, that’s why Toby gets so much praise because he’s that calm, steady voice of reason of support, unlike Michael who just wants to shout out how great the company is and look at all these fantastic things we're doing he's like yeah great, but we just want that stability.

Toby appreciation moment right here. He gets a hard time, but I did appreciate him in that episode I think he was, like I should say, the voice of reason for the Stamford lot and yeah the Stanford lot don't stay for very much longer there's any it's only Andy that sticks around afterwards.

Yeah that's true they all move on quite quickly don't they and and Karen she leaves but I think that's very unrelated to Michael Scott.

Yeah yeah that's probably more Jim driven but yeah Andy's the only one who sticks around and that probably says a lot about Andy because of this you know family that Michael is forcing.

Weirdly, they do kind of come together because they come together because they're discussing Michael, and right at the end and, Michael thinks that's because of me. Yeah, it is because of you because you're the problem. But yeah, they do come together, and they do have this moment, which is really nice to see because the whole of the build-up has been this divide, during this integration ceremony, us and them, you and them, new and old, and so they finally come together despite all of that. Michael’s there all smug. We love them because he’s the world's best boss. 

Despite all his shortcomings, I do, there is a soft spot in my heart for Michael Scott, that's for sure. - Yeah, yeah, he, but imagine working with him. - Oh, no, I could work with him,

 no. I'd fire myself in like a couple of seconds. - Yeah, yeah, you would, you'd bring a legal lawsuit, action, whatever happens in the U.S. I feel like the employment laws are very different to us, but, but yeah, you'd get out of there, sharpish, but I think everyone has been there for so long, and even Ryan changes so much, you know, from being semi-keen temp to this animal, and I don't know, I wonder how much Michael Scott has got to do with that. Everyone is just sort of tolerating it, and everyone is in this sort of almost either very old, so they're not going anywhere like Creed, who knows what he does, he still doesn't know, and you know the likes of Stanley and Phyllis and then you've got Jim and Pam who are probably there for one another um which you know they're not leaving because they just want to be together and that's why Michael thinks it's family because he's brought these people together but um you sort of think that's not the reason why they're not leaving it's just they're a bit stuck there.

Yeah, that's a shame, isn't it? But we love them being stuck there because then we get to keep watching them on the screen. Well, this has been just such a great conversation I've enjoyed every minute of it, and I can't wait for us to get together again to talk about it.

Yes, this one is season three. episode eight, I think. Eight, episode eight, yeah. So even then, that's quite, quite, there's a lot behind that, that kind of gives some light to who Michael really is in the office itself. So, yeah, no doubt. We'll be back again with Sharn to talk about it.

Please, again. I'll happily be a regular feature if you'll have me back. back. Absolutely. Thank you so much. It's been really great, and I think when you first mentioned it,

I was so excited to talk about the office because I love it. And actually I realised there's so much to dissect and so much to share about what we do in the workplace, in our roles as well. All comes back to Michael Scott. So thank you, thanks for having me on. Invite me back, please.

Yes, of course. Thank you so much, Sharn and thank you to all our listeners. We would love to hear any feedback you have. And if there's a particular episode you want us to dissect and talk about, then do let us know by getting in touch with us via email, Instagram, or LinkedIn. We'll have all the links in the description of the podcast. But can't wait to see you in the next episode. Take care for now. Bye.