EP04 - Boys and Girls

(...) Welcome to Out of the Office, a podcast exploring the lessons learned from the hit TV show, The US Office. And this is all about how we can create a more diverse and inclusive workplace. I'm your host, Sara Chandran, and we're gonna be delving into the world of Danda Mifflin and examining the different characters and the scenarios that are all presented throughout the series. We're gonna look at how the show highlights the ways that we might not want to run The Office in our workplaces and how we can actually split that to think about respecting diversity, fostering inclusivity, and creating that more positive work environment. Now, whether you're a fan of The Office or just interested in learning more about creating that inclusive workplace, hopefully this is the podcast for you. So make sure you grab your favourite Dundee Award and tune in to this episode of Out of the Office. Now, today's episode, we're looking at season two, episode 15, "Boys and Girls". In this episode, Jan holds a Women in the Workplace seminar with the women at the Scranton branch. Michael, who's the regional manager of the Scranton office, is very jealous and actually just feels really angry that he's been shut out of the conference room. So he then decides to gather all the men in the office and head down to the warehouse for what he'll hope is kind of like a good old-fashioned boys club session and bonding between the bros in the office. And actually what he ends up finding out is that the warehouse workers feel really underpaid and then ends up kind of encouraging them to form a union, which kind of just falls apart. But there's some really nice moments in this episode with Jan kind of encouraging one of the characters, Pam, to think about taking up an internship with the internal graphic design course. So there's some really nice bits and some really awkward parts in this particular episode. And I'm very delighted to have a good friend of mine to come on and talk about this episode. Natalie, do you wanna come and say hello?

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• Hello, and thank you so much for having me. I am huge fan of the US office. As you can see, I'm absolutely beaming to be on the podcast today.

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I'll do a little intro to myself but for all of your wonderful listeners. So I'm Natalie.(...) My background is in talent, so specifically recruitment. I work within the advertising industry and my big passion and my specific focus just over half of my career has been how we can support diversity, equity, inclusivity, and belonging in the workplace and in the talent process as well.(...) Like I said, I'm a huge, huge fan of the US office. And I definitely have to say favorite episode, it's probably stress relief. It's just pure chaos, pure absolute chaos. But I think what stood out for me the most was obviously the kiss,

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which actually Jim and Pam, the characters, when they had their kiss at the end of the episode, apparently it was unscripted or so people say, which I just love a little bit of like off the cuff, and I think it was such a heartwarming moment but I'm also very much at home within a lot of chaos. So I really enjoyed the episode. - I love that. And what a lovely bit of like insight into the episode. I didn't realize it was completely unscripted. That's amazing. Because I feel like it kind of makes that moment, doesn't it? When they have that kiss. - Yeah, absolutely. And I feel like, for me watching these types of shows, there's so much that you can relate to it on, especially when it comes to just how completely ridiculous some of the scenarios are. And we know obviously they're placed there for this big comedic piece, but there's actually a lot of real feeling within that. And when they have this almost like breaking the fourth wall moments of real connection and love, it just, it breaks through that comedy a little bit for me and reminds me like, oh, this is really sweet actually at its heart of a show. - Oh, I love that. And I, do you know what? I remember when I messaged you about being on the podcast and I will never forget like, I think all your entire message was in all capitals. Like you were so excited. I was like, you were gonna be the best person on this show because I need someone who shares the equal amount of like excitement about the series. Like I've watched it way too many times. I can't even count on one hand or even two times in terms of how many times I've rewatched it. I saw someone post like a meme being like, "Oh, I can't remember." It was something like, oh, how many times have you watched the office rather than like, have you watched it? Because actually if you've ever watched the office, you don't just watch it the once, you just keep repeating it over and over again. - Again and again. I think I said too, it's my downtime show, but it's also my falling asleep show. So it's, and it's so funny because actually my neighbors have the same thing. And we've got slightly thin walls at times. Their TV is up against our joining wall and all I can hear around bedtime. It's just the intro to the US office. And I'm like, yeah,(...) yeah, me too.(...) - Oh, I love that. You have no noise complaints when it's like the office show. You're like, yeah, I'll just, do you know what? Maybe I'll just pause mine and try and sync it up with yours so we can watch it at the same time.

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Oh,(...) brilliant. So there's a question that I'm asking all my guests and it's kind of a bit of an icebreaker. And I just think it's almost like the first,

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you know, in the pilot episode, we've got Michael Scott who kind of introduced himself and his persona and who he is as a character.(...) And he shows us that he's got this mug,(...) World's Best Boss, which he obviously bought himself, which I think just kind of highlights very much who he is as an individual.(...) I'm asking all my guests, if you had a World's Best Something mug, what do you think yours would be? - I love this, cause I sent this to you yesterday. My first thought went to World's Best Overthinker.(...) (laughs)

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But failing that it would be World's Best Party Planner, just because I love party planning so much. And I think being able to do something for a friend or a family member and just seeing everyone gathered in a room together, having such a wonderful time and bringing people into that space to celebrate someone is possibly one of my favorite feelings. So yeah, I'm gonna take the World's Best Party Planner mug. - I love that. So do you think you would end up butting heads with Angela if you're in the party planning committee?

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• That would be a bit of a fight for the position of head of in that one. - I love that, World's Best Party Planner. That is a really cool title to give yourself. I think that's a really, really wicked one. Okay, let's get into the episode of "Boys and Girls" and talk about kind of what happens and transpires in this episode. So as I mentioned at the beginning, Michael kind of throws this huge tantrum because he can't really fathom or deal with the fact that like Jan is hosting this seminar that is just for the women in the office and he's like not allowed in. You see him like walking around the door just trying to like elbend himself into it. And I feel like there's so many episodes where he's just always trying to put himself in places where he shouldn't be.

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And I guess, yeah, I'm just curious what you think is happening to Michael here and why he's just so like,

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so triggered in some respect that he's not even allowed in the room with Jan and can't understand why men shouldn't be in these women only places. - I think it's so difficult because you do, I wanna go so wide with it because Michael as a character, as a personality,

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I think there's a lot of insecurities there. There's potentially some previous trauma or previous things there that absolutely comes out in the way that that character interacts with the other individuals in the office. And I think it's difficult not to take that fully into account, especially when you see this episode because you see such a visceral response in him wanting to be involved, that feeling of, I'm being left out, they're talking about me or they're conspiring in that space. So a small part of me sits there and thinks like that, that's gotta be really tough for someone to feel that way and have that insecurity within that space. And I think, my first thought, my fourth call with always that is like, maybe that person needs to maybe go and chat to someone and maybe try and unpick that a little bit.(...) But I think we see it happen so much where we wanna bring together groups of people that maybe had shared some experiences and really find support with one another and provide that opportunity. But also at the same time, you have to find that balance of making sure people are aware. This isn't about taking something away from another group. It's not about excluding other individuals. That's never the focal point for these things. It's actually more about bringing together a support group of individuals so they can lean on each other. They can share experiences and mentorship opportunities.(...) And I feel that when you look at Michael as a character, as a whole, there is potentially that insecurity around not being included or being redundant in that situation or just not having to speak in that room without the knowledge and understanding of actually why that group has gone to have that conversation. And I think we see such a knowledge gap with Michael so many times in so many episodes where actually maybe someone's not sat him down and said, this is really why we're doing it. And this is why right now your involvement isn't necessary in this space. But if you want to ally yourself with this group, hey, here's how you can go ahead and do it, right? But as we know, Donda Mifflin, do not handle things like that. - No, never. And also just really, I find really interesting is the deep empathy you have for Michael Scott where you're like, really actually thinking about his perspective of why has he reacted in this way? And seeing that, and I think we get this impression from throughout the entire kind of series of this deep insecurity. Like he just wants to be loved. He almost doesn't even want to be seen as a manager. He wants to be everybody's best friend. He wants to be included. And we see in other episodes where there's like parties that are organized and he's like wondering why he hasn't been invited and then ends up inviting himself to said party and things like that, right? So it's just really interesting that he kind of has that difficulty kind of separating the professional with the personal and his emotions are so connected with that moment.(...) And it was, yeah, fascinating when you're saying about how trying to, because obviously when we jump into this episode, we just start with Jan sat in the room with the other women in the office. We don't actually know what's happened beforehand in terms of does Michael know that Jan's coming to the office? Does Michael know that this particular woman in the workplace seminar is happening? Or has it just kind of been sprung upon him? Because actually sometimes we need to maybe take a step back and think, okay, have we communicated enough to everybody in the room about what's happening here? Why is it happening? And making sure everyone is on board to avoid those kind of awkward moments of someone standing outside the meeting room, just trying to like, eavesdrop into the conversation and wonder why they're not in there. Like, hello.

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But it is, and I think, you know, we see it even with within the group where we have this, you know, the women in the workplace group that Jan leads, I feel like you almost sense that unknowing within the group of women as well as to why, actually, why are we here? And, you know, one person thinking it's about girl talk and another thinking it's about this. And there seems to be that slight disarray even within the group. I tried to put myself in that situation. My first question would always be like, why are we doing this? What's the intention behind it? You know, it's great that we're all together sharing this experience, but what's the intention? What does corporate want to get out of this? What is the focal point?(...) And I find that a lot of the time in workplaces and in groups, there can be this hesitancy to want to get involved in things like this for a lot of people because there is just such a lack of communication. As you already said, around this gap around why it's being done, what are the intentions behind it? But also what are the actions that will come off the back of it as well? And I think Michael is very much a victim of that in this episode as well at the very beginning. And as you said, even the women in that room itself and yeah, in terms of some of them talking about like, makeup and outfits and then like the things that in terms of their goals and aspirations. And Jan comes out and says, you know, the actual purpose of this is to find out who are those standout employees. And, you know, she's relying on what people's goals are in that session. But if they don't know the kind of premise of that session itself, they're kind of set up to fail from the very beginning because they've gone in, they're a bit on the back foot. They don't know what the conversation is supposed to be about. So they just talk about their general goals of the types of vans and cars they want and the houses and marriage and et cetera. But not actually, it's almost my chance that actually Pam talks about her drawing. And then that suddenly then turns to this conversation about the internship, but actually had Jan maybe set it up in a different way or corporate as a whole, maybe actually there'd be more development opportunities for all of the women in the office. - Yeah, absolutely. And you know, you talk a little bit about, and I hope we can sort of roll nicely into it because I feel like it links so nicely with that conversation around mentorship and around sponsorship as well. And this really, it just puts it into so much perspective about, you know, we talk a lot about having mentors within a business and, you know, the roles of managers to support their individual teams and to start raising them up. But we don't talk a lot about what sponsorship looks like within an organization. And I find there can be so many gaps and we see in this episode as well with Pam, you know, not knowing this opportunity was available. And like you said, by chance, just talking about a love for graphic design, and then by chance, there being this opportunity. Whereas actually, if we have people really taking the time to get to know one another, get to know what people's aspirations are outside of what their day-to-day role is, what do they enjoy? What do they love? What do they, you know, what gets them out of bed in the morning? What really sparks joy for them? Then people can start to really build in more of this sponsorship ideal where if you're in a room and that person isn't in there, you know what their goals are. You know what excites them. So you can be on the lookout of how you can support them and how you can advocate for them when they're not there to bring them those opportunities.(...) And you do just think there's such a trick missed, especially within this episode. And I find that link between Michael Scott and the people that work for him, and him actually not knowing who they are at their core and really not understanding what really makes them tick. And you do think, gosh, if he maybe sat down and took that time, the whole conversation could be so different around even where Pam's career could be at that point in time. She could be off running a graphic design department. You never know, right? Absolutely. And even just thinking about, as you say, Michael Scott taking the time out, you know, we wouldn't have to wait for these women in the workplace seminars and sessions for people to get those opportunities in the workplace. Actually, Michael Scott, if he was more of a,

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an active, proactive manager and leader within the Scranton branch, he would be able to go, okay, I know this about Pam. I know that, you know, there's so many episodes where she's just drawing in her notebook rather than actually taking notes. And he's never taken the time to really like pick up on that. Great point. And this is as well why it's so good to have a sponsor in the room that knows you and that gets you in the understanding and takes the time out. Yeah. I think also probably be worthwhile for our listeners to,

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maybe we could talk about the distinct differences between a mentor and a sponsor because they are very different, right? And you mentioned like a sponsor, they kind of talk about you when you're not in the room and give you those opportunities.

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And I guess, I don't know if you agree, but mentors in some ways are there to give you advice, but maybe not always have those opportunities and those doors open available to you, but they can impart some wisdom and skills to that individual that they're mentoring. Yeah, absolutely. I would agree. I think that mentorship piece is a guidance. It's being able to utilize your lived experience, your work experience, your understanding. And like you said, in part that onto another individual who may be experiencing something similar or helping them think in a slightly different way, but a sponsor is going to be that person who will have access to potential areas that you may not have as an individual, but that you might be very interested in. And I think all too often businesses and our asset businesses rely on managers to do all of that, to mentor, to sponsor, to ally to everything. Now, absolutely, managers want to have that skillset to support their people 100%, but even they may not be in all of those other rooms, even they may not have access to all of those other opportunities. So it's about building multiple different sponsors within companies and having people at multiple different levels as well. And I think, again, where we see Michael maybe falling at the hurdle a little bit there is that he could be such a wonderful sponsor for his people. But what I tend to see so often, and especially as well in this episode, is there's this ulterior motive. It's how does it make Michael Scott look as a great manager? And if it's going to make Michael Scott look good, then yeah, cool, I'll sponsor this person and I'll mentor this person. What I loved about Jan's approach was, okay, look, I questioned slightly, coming from corporate,(...) what are we looking to do here? What's the outcome? But actually in that moment where Jan talked about this graphic design internship off the cuff with Pam, you could see there was a real genuine want and connection there to just support someone and to give them an opportunity. And to open a door, otherwise they wouldn't have maybe been able to open themselves. And again, I see Michael missing that trick and falling at that hurdle every single time.(...) So it's really interesting to see that dynamic. But yeah, to wind it back, it's really important to have both within a business and to make multiple different people, almost again, that ally within the company, a person that can give someone a voice when they're not in the room.(...) Because it also lends really nicely into where we start to look at teams and supporting them and growing them. You can only have so many opportunities when you silo people, right? When you kind of look at them as, here's your day-to-day role and that's it. But when we start to look at someone as an individual, as a whole and all of the different pieces and interests that make them them, you start to find these different opportunities within a business over here or over here or pathways that wouldn't have otherwise been imagined. So there's so many great positives from just sponsoring individuals, but also coupling that with really getting to know them for who they are outside of their just day-to-day, nine-to-five working role. - And I think there's almost that point where you see that with Phyllis, because actually she knows that Pam loves to draw because she kind of echoes and says, she's really good. And I think that was such a really beautiful moment that was kind of organic. I know it's a TV show, but very organic in the way that it felt like it happened. And, you know, Pam being hesitant and not being like so forthcoming around joining this internship and, you know, Jan really pushing forward with that. And just thinking about that sponsor and mentor there as well, like, I feel like in that moment, Jan is the sponsor.(...) And then later on we see Jim encouraging Pam to do it as well. And I feel like that, oh, you know, obviously they've got the whole relationship thing going or not quite yet that moment. But I feel like in that,(...) Jim is being a mentor to Pam to try and encourage her to do because she's so reluctant. And maybe, you know, she's never seen herself, push herself in those kinds of ways and to do new things. And I feel like there's a lot of people out there that are quite reluctant to do new things. Cause it is scary, you know, me starting this podcast feels really scary, but it's something exciting and new to do. But I have people like yourself and the people that I work with to kind of help me and, you know, push me to do these things. And not everybody always has that network in the office. And maybe they don't have it outside the office either because maybe the networks outside the office don't actually have corporate roles and wouldn't know what kind of advice to impart. So yeah, having those really important connections inside the office can be, yeah, revolutionary for people's careers and just the past that they take in the workplace. - I hear you. It's like be a fillers and be a Jim, you know, when you see someone who's in need of just that little extra support. And sometimes it is just, it's just lending an ear so someone can just talk out their feelings a little bit. And sometimes people get to the conclusion on their own of what they're really keen to do. Sometimes they do need someone who can, I always say this to people, it's like, do you need listening or do you need a solution? You know, what do you need from me in that moment to be able to support you? And I think that's such a powerful tool where you see, you know, again, Phyllis kind of advocating for that person. You see Jim very much like heavily advocating for Pam as well. And it's really great to have that strong support network. But also you can see that, you know, for Pam, it's giving her that moment of self-reflection, giving her that confidence and really drawing that out of herself. - I had the same thing when you asked me to do this. I was like, who's gonna wanna listen to me natter on about a TV show for half an hour?

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But it is, it's it's it's. - I know.

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• You're like, we'll listen, top two listeners.(...) I love it. But it's like having someone that sees a part of you that maybe you don't see in yourself and just knows, just gently draw that out of you and to show you and kind of almost hold a mirror up to say, actually, you're bloody fantastic. Go for it and you'll have my full support.

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• I love that. That's like a real mic drop moment. It's just such nice advice to give people. And then we have like the flip where we have Michael going down into the warehouse to host like a boys club, which is just horrific in so many different ways. And I feel like in some respect, there are these kind of boys clubs in organizations and you can think about certain industries like tech, for example,(...) and there is a kind of an issue with these kind of environments and cultures. And, you know, even within that warehouse conversation, it goes down. There is a woman that works within the warehouse team and she obviously just obssive, because she's like, well, this is obviously not designed for me, even though it's supposed to be for everybody in the warehouse.

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So I think, yeah, have you, have you seen like boys clubs in the workplace before? And like, yeah, do you have any insight or anything you wanna share about the limitations and the problems around boys clubs?(...) - Oh yeah, I mean, I could say a few things. And I think just to pick up on one point, you did mention there as well, it's really interesting because Michael goes, literally says like, right, let's go down. We're gonna go down to the warehouse. It's real men doing real men's work. And you have match there. And matches a female warehouse operative or a female warehouse worker. And it's just, I think, again, we come up to this bit of putting people in two boxes where Michael's going, this is what I see the warehouse to be. So that is what it will be. And the limitations that he is then placing on that whole environment.

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And I think, coming to boys club, I have my background is like I said, it's been in recruitment,

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a little bit of contingent, mostly sort of what we call RPO or embedded recruitment. And as an industry, that the history of the industry has been very boys club led.

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And even when I started, gosh, this was about eight and a half, nearly nine years ago, we absolutely saw the remnants of that. And the harm that it can do is so, so catastrophic, not just from an exclusionary perspective,(...) but also the culture that it brings,(...) walking into a workplace and saying, this is who I am as a human being. This is by gender identity. This is who I present as. And immediately being on that back foot,(...) knowing that actually, no matter what you do, no matter how you present yourself, no matter how much you might try and change, nothing will ever get you into that space. And it's so dangerous because it promotes the fact that, people have to change in order to be part of this upper group, which is absolutely not the truth. And it's absolutely not what we want to be promoting, in an equitable workplace. Because for me, it's very much about wanting to come to work and feeling like I belong, like I'm heard, like I'm trusted, like I'm respected and supported. And by having those boys club situations, or actually by having any real exclusionary situation,(...) it's just not the environment that you bring. And people do come into work wearing a bit more of a mask. And you do feel like you have to hold yourself in a very different way, which is so incredibly tiring.

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Like I said, recruitment is, it is scary.(...) I've been to a couple of interviews with a couple of firms in London when I wanted to start working there. And you walked in and you could immediately tell what it was like. You could immediately tell that it was very brash. It was very sort of male heavy.

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And you almost sort of looked down at, sneered at almost when you're walking into that room and trying to hold yourself in a level of professionalism, but realizing immediately that you're not respected because of your gender.

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And it is, it's a really, really awful environment to be in. And again, when you bring it back to this episode, when you see Michael enforce that and enforce those limitations on what it means to be a warehouse worker, what it means to be part of the boys club, we see quite very quickly how immediately that excludes one individual match. She was a very valued person in that workspace and is very valued within her team, as we've seen before.

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So yeah, I think it's,

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it is a really, really difficult conversation because we can see just the harm that it does to so many individuals, but the culture that also perpetuates as well.

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And yeah, I just, when that moment when he went downstairs and managed to just walk out, I was like, yeah, me too. Just, I would do the exact same thing. - So relatable. I'm like, yeah, I would totally leave that room because there's so many ways he's just saying in that moment that you do not belong. And there's been so many moments in my career and obviously in yours as well, where you've walked into a room and you're like, I don't belong here. Sometimes it doesn't even require someone to say something. You just immediately can sense the vibe and know, okay, this is either somewhere where I'm gonna spend all of two seconds here, find it extremely exhausting, go home and just be burnt out from just being in this space or gonna have to put on my,(...) I talked about this before about this assimilation tool kit and this mask and all these things, this code switching kind of costumes that we put on to just try and fit in and just navigate that space because we might not have the privilege of alternatives and that might be the only space we can be in in that moment.

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Merge and the warehouse workers, they're all there and they end up talking about forming a union and all of these things because they're not actually paid that well. And Michael's trying really hard to relate to them and they're like, you can't relate to us because you're completely different to us. And that's just so indicative of what happens in a lot of workplaces. And then you have like, they flash to the back upstairs and you can see all the women talking about sports terms, they're talking about what does par mean and all of these, and then Kelly starts talking about second base, which I found absolutely hilarious. And they start digging into Jan about relationship with Michael, it's hilarious.

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But I've talked to someone the other day about the fact that like a lot of these kind of boys clubs or workplaces,

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there is like these golf trips that you go on and not everybody and not every man plays golf, but suddenly you've got these golf trips off days and you've just completely excluded such a big proportion of people from those sales opportunities or networking opportunities or career progressions because you don't know how to hit a ball with a stupid golf club. I shouldn't say stupid because I actually have started to take up golf because I actually really enjoy it now, but that's besides the point.

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• I do and it's like,(...) you almost sit there and you go, come on now, really?(...) Placing limitations on people based on your gender stereotypes, wow, that's, you're like, that is so,

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however many years ago at this point, it's just right now and something that is so great to see in the world is that people are so aware of how to call in and call out in those situations and really kind of say, actually, you know what, this isn't good, this isn't good. And we're gonna advocate for this group and we're gonna ally with this group. And it's so nice to be able to see that a lot more because I just think if I had someone who could really see that effect or could really understand that and who also went against the grain and actually stood up and talked about it a lot more, my career, I think would have been so different.

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And there was situations, especially with male-led

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businesses that I had worked for.

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And again, seeing that culture, seeing that limitation and seeing that I would never get past a certain point, it really did make me question my own worth within the workplace and my own ability to do a good job and to come to work every single day and to be valued. And that was a really difficult process to go through for yourself because you do have so much self-doubt. And I think one of the worst parts, and especially I see it within the workplace, especially I see it within this episode, and it was something that really struck a chord with me is that very few people actually stood up and said, this is not okay. And I think for me, it doesn't matter if you're a boss, if you own the business, whoever you are, discrimination is discrimination, hate is hate and bad and non-inclusive behavior is bad and non-inclusive behavior. And I feel like people don't have that space or that privilege sometimes to speak up and speak out for fear of being ostracized or for fear of losing their job. And when we talk about having sponsors and allies, especially within senior positions, it's not just about identifying new job opportunities, it's about supporting people when they don't have a voice or supporting people when they don't have a space or the privilege to be able to stand up for what isn't right and for what's right in a business. And I think I saw that and it was really difficult to watch that moment, especially with Madge walking out(...) of that conversation because no one really stood up and said, this isn't okay, like this isn't right. And we don't see it a lot in that workplace. And for whatever reason, again, whether it's for fear of losing a job or for fear of being ostracized, but it is so difficult because it's a situation that I have been in so many times where I have been ostracized or where I have felt the effects of a boys club or from an exclusionary piece.(...) And sort of looking around the room with wide eyes thinking, oh my gosh, is no one here to support me? Has no one got my back? And I think that for me, it really did, it really, really struck a chord, it really did.(...) - Yeah, and I think a lot of people relate to that where they have been in that room and they're like, why is no one saying anything? And even when they're gossiping about the problems of like being with women and they're saying about dating and you can see like Jim like rolling his eyes in shock almost that they're talking about the fact that they find annoying that their girlfriends want to be taken out for a date. And you can obviously imagine Jim is like, I would take Pan on a date all the time. But even in that moment, he's not an ally or an advocate for women and saying in that moment, like actually, if you love somebody, surely,(...) you would treat them to that and treat them well. And that's obviously kind of a trivial example because they're just talking about dating. But as you were saying, there's other moments in there where to be honest, if Jim was a real character(...) and a real person in our lives, I actually would be really annoyed and upset to find out that someone like Jim didn't speak up and call these men out for some really problematic kind of reflections and comments. And the things that they're saying about even the women in the office and people like Jan, I think it's really okay. And we know those things happen. Talk about those locker room chats and things of that nature and they do have them.

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• Absolutely, and you only really see, and there's the underlying current of Michael and Jan having had a relationship or some kind of romantic interest kind of outside of that specific episode. And you really only see at the very end, Michael standing up for Jan when he feels like the warehouse staff maybe taken it a little bit too far, maybe called her a couple of derogatory names. But it was really interesting because again, we come back to this because it's Michael Scott's own interest because it affects him personally. That's when he's ready to stand up. But the rest of the time, absolutely there is no allyship in that room. There is no support for other underrepresented groups within that business because it doesn't favor Michael Scott as a boss. So I feel like it continuously kind of comes back to that moment of if we have those people in senior positions or in any positions where it's very much, if it doesn't favor me, then I don't care. And if it doesn't affect me, then I don't care. We can see just how much of a detrimental effect that that will have on a business, a culture and people as well.

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• 100%. And if there are any men, particularly cis men listening to this podcast, I think the message here is if you are in those rooms where you are surrounded by people just like yourself and they are saying things that are problematic and you would hate for anyone that you know within your own friendship circle, or even people that aren't your friends and you know that there's absolutely wrong thing to say, even if it's not in your best interest, it's still so important to stand up and do what's right and say, "Hey, like that's not okay." Or even like ask them to explain the joke and pretend not to understand it because there's so many jokes that go past and they just blame it on banter. But actually if you start making people try to explain what the joke means, they suddenly start to get very awkward or very uncomfortable because they know the very nature of what they're saying is super problematic. So that's just my message for any cis men listening to this. - Absolutely and talk to people about calling in a lot more. We hear calling out and I think it's a very important tool to put a stop to discrimination and hate in its tracks. And I think it is such an important tool but people do also forget there is another tool around calling people in where it's much more conversational and it's much more focused on reflection and it's much more focused on sharing insight and sharing understanding and trying to gain a bit more of a perspective. And oftentimes for me, I find it so powerful when you hear a joke being made, you hear an off the cuff kind of comment and actually sitting with someone and saying, oh, it's interesting, what did you mean by that? Like unpick that for me a little bit. What were your intentions behind what you said? And it's actually nice because sometimes you find that sometimes it's down to miseducation. People actually don't realise what they're saying is what they're saying and then it allows for that person to have a think, reflect and reform that opinion. But also just as you said, sometimes you do catch people out and they really have to sit with it and go, okay, no, actually that wasn't right. So I think, I always say to people that calling in is such a powerful tool. Utilise it, open up those conversations because it really does allow for a little bit more education within that space.

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But I would be really interested in, if Michael Scott was in the room with me, whether calling in would even work with an individual like that and what might happen. You never know, it might start to peel back the layers of the onion and find what's really at the crux of that. - I don't know, I don't know.(...) You never know where Michael Scott. And actually that brings me onto this because we're coming to the end, which is really sad because we could talk about this all day(...) is the kind of like takeaway that Michael has. So even after all of that kind of what's transpired in the episode and everything that's happened, you would think he would have a better reflection then and I'll do it quote for quote. To run an office, you need men and women. Know why? Because you need to have that crazy sexual tension to keep things interesting. And I'm like shaking my head and I just wanna shake Michael Scott like, is this really your key takeaway from this particular day in the office?

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• And this is it and we see it again. And I feel like it's that self-serving piece. That is his only focus because that is the only thing that I think he is focused on. And it is just, I mean, when I watched this episode, every time I watch it, but especially when I was watching it in preparation for this, it's just such a head in the hands moment because you think, and it happens. People do think like this in those positions. It is so terrifying to know that that is the ideal as someone whose actions can affect a whole group of individuals within a business. And I think when I tried to look at all of the potential takeaways that you could have had from that episode, I mean, there is a long, long list. And I think for me, it's really like, we can see the power of community and belonging and we can really see the power of supporting individuals.(...) And I think for him,(...) you know, I mean, the whole series could be different if that takeaway was really actually not putting again, those limiting beliefs on people based on key characteristics and actually getting to know people for who they are at their core, what makes them them, what they're passionate about, all of these intersecting different things that build up that person's lives and actually maybe allowing them to dictate what they enjoy, what they want to go and do in opening up those pathways.

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And, you know, if that had been the key takeaway, I feel like Dunder Mifflin would be a very successful business.

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• Yeah, so beautifully for it. I think, yeah, it wouldn't probably make for such an entertaining watch that we do consume every day.

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It would just be like one of those case studies of like, this is how officers should be, watch this. I'm watching it.

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(laughs) - The case study is exactly what it would be. That puts it really well.

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• Natalie, this has been such a joy and it's been so much fun to just talk about the US Office with you. And I'm so sure that our listeners will have had a good time listening to us. Just, yeah, chit chat about our favourite show.(...) And for anyone watching, our matching jumpers was not intentional.

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• Yeah. - But I think it just goes to show how very like-minded both Natalie and I are. - Absolutely. - There was no conversation about what types of people, like, what colour jump are you wearing?

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• I do put this on, but I changed out of my work from home clothes, which are very different to this. It's usually a hoodie and something else into this five minutes before filming. So I just felt like it was so meant to be. - Yeah, actually, likewise.

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Wonderful. Okay, well, thank you everyone for listening. I hope you enjoyed today's episode. If you would like Natalie back, which I'm sure you will, do just let us know and give us a message. If there are any other episodes that you want us to cover, we're always open to feedback and reflections from you all in terms of what we should talk about next, because there is a lot of content to impact in this particular series. So we're all ears and yeah, hope everyone has a great time and we'll see you in the next episode.