EP06 - Gay Witch Hunt

Hello everyone and welcome to Out of the Office, a podcast exploring the lessons learned from the hit TV show, the US Office. And what we're going to do is unpack these episodes to understand the ways that we can create a more diverse and inclusive workplace. I'm your host, Sara Chandran, the founder of Fresh and Fearless, and I'll be helping you to delve into the world of Dunder Mifflin and examine the different characters, scenarios, and scenes that are presented throughout the series. 

We're going to analyze how the show highlights the things that we're supposed to not do in the office and understand the importance of respecting diversity, fostering inclusion, and creating that positive work environment. So, whether you're a fan of the office or you're just interested in learning more about creating that more inclusive workplace, hopefully this is the podcast for you. So grab your favourite Dundie Award and let's tune into Out of the Office.

Today's episode we're going to be focusing on is from season three, episode one, Gay Witch Hunt. And this one is an unforgettable and very cringe-worthy episode. And essentially it's where Michael Scott, the regional manager, accidentally outs his employee, Oscar, and then essentially the whole office just falls apart and it's just a hotbed of awkwardness and misunderstandings. And we kind of see a lot of behaviours that people exhibit that we might think is a bit of an extreme example, but actually, these are things that we do definitely still see in today's workplaces.

So a bit of a trigger warning for any LGBTQIA plus listeners. This is a bit of a tricky one to talk about, but I have the best guests to come on and talk about this with me, and that is Whitney. Whitney, do you want to come on and say hello and give everyone a quick introduction to yourself?

Yeah, absolutely. I should just say I'm so excited to talk about this episode as a queer Black woman, but I also just love the office and I think there's so many great lessons from it, so I'm really excited. But a bit about me, my name is Whitney Simon. I am the head of D&I at Missive, which is a boutique tech PR agency. Recently I launched a D&I consultancy as part of Missive, where we focus specifically on helping tech companies, but also comms agencies and any organisation that wants to approach D&I in a more human-focused, human-centred way. So yeah, really excited to be here. I am so excited to have you here. 

I remember when we talked about this and we were both screaming about it, like, "Ah!" We're just so connected on this and many other things. Every time we talk, we just non-stop talk about stuff, which is really lovely. So I'm just grateful that you've taken the time to join me on this journey with Out of the Office, this podcast because yeah, every episode has been such a joy to record and every guest I've had has been just amazing. So yeah, I think you're going to be another great guest. So let's not delay. Let's get started. So something I'm doing with all my guests is having a bit of an icebreaker.

And essentially Michael in the series, he has a mug that says "World's Best Boss" that he bought himself, which is incredibly funny and ironic. And the thing I want to hear from my guests is if you bought yourself a World's Best Something mug, what would you all say?

So I'm going to flip it a little bit because that's just what I do. But I think I would want World's Most Inspiring Boss. I think for me, it's so, and this show actually shows it, like leadership can be so important in someone's career. Like managers hold so much importance in kind of how I've gotten to this point. And not always positively in my experience, but for me, my goal is to make sure that anybody who works with me and is on my team, like they feel as though they're inspired to do the best, be the best that they can be, and be their most authentic self in that too. It doesn't need to be cookie cutters. So yeah, that's my little spin on it. World's Most Inspiring Boss. 

Love it. Yeah. I think that inspiration point is so valid and something that maybe Michael Scott really needs because I think rather than inspiring his office, I think he just annoys them like a lot. Like he is probably like, he should be putting asterisks on his mug being like annoying boss.

But then we end up loving him for it. And I think, I mean, that for me is just what I, and I think Sara, we talked about this, what I love about the office is it shows that there is potential for growth. If you're willing to really like take a step back and not be hindered by all the ego and the fear of making mistakes. And regardless for all his faults, like Michael Scott will like, you know, face up to his mistakes. And I think it makes people really end up loving him. I mean, I love him. And I remember the first episode I watched, I was like, what is this? This is incredibly problematic.

Yeah, I remember when I was watching it and I was like, I think the first time I started watching it was maybe when I started my business or just before. And so I was like, how can I legit, like, how can I legitimately watch the office whilst also being a DEI consultant? It feels like the two things are not compatible. But I do think like the series, like you say, they learn from their mistakes. And they're not like, I mean, sometimes Michael does shy away from his mistakes, but I feel like there's always like a learning at the end. And somehow they always come back together. But also like the premise of the show is never to, for the most part, there's obviously some episodes that are tricky and problematic, but you're never laughing at the most marginalized or underrepresented group within the room. You're always, you know, Michael Scott is the butt of the joke. You know, we're all laughing and just rolling our eyes at how incompetent Michael is. And also like how he's a true representation of how there are so many leaders and managers out there in their positions of power. And it's like, how, how did you get there?

Why are you still here is always my question. I'm like, how did Michael not get fired in the first episode? Like, we're talking about the states here where suing culture, like lawsuit culture is ripe. So I'm just like, if this actually happened to the States, it would have been sued a long time ago. But yeah, no, it's, I do, I totally agree with that. I do think that the show was very clever in that it always was Michael that you were like, Oh my God, it was never like Oscar or Sydney or Angela or any of or Pam, like it was never those folks. It was always looking at Michael like, what are you doing?(...) And yeah, I think that is, that is a massive kind of kudos to that team, because I think it could have, while it can be really cringy, and I don't know that it's aged 100% well, I do feel as though like for shows of that time, they were just really good at finding that line about kind of recognizing the things that do happen in an office, making us like satire out of it, but doing it in a tasteful way where it's like by the end of it, you were just like, yeah, this is what you don't do. 

So phew so that means I can still watch it them as a D. I can still see. Yes. Are you kidding?

I was whenever I need a cry, like a laugh cry where I'm just like, I can't breathe. This is the show for that. Yeah, absolutely. And I remember listening to, I don't know their actual names, but Pam and Angela, they have a podcast series where they like unpack each episode together. It's really wonderful. So they kind of come on and like reminisce and talk about the kind of behind the scenes. And they yeah, they just talk about each episode and what's involved and how like that diversity day episode was BJ Novak's like very first script he wrote. And like that is a very like tricky, like, episode to have written. And you know, it is a very, very unsettling environment. But it's really interesting that they kind of put people forward for these kind of episodes that maybe weren't like writing lots and lots of things or very, very new to these kind of things. And I think it's amazing. It just shows you and is a testament to if you put people like Mindy Kaling and new writers forward, actually, you'll get something so brilliantly amazing out of it as well.(...) 

Yeah. And I think just to build on that, like, I also feel as though we've we've gotten into this space where everyone thinks that D&I needs to be perfect. And if it's not, then we just like don't do it. And I think I think it creates a culture where it's just like we're so fearful of saying the wrong thing, doing the wrong thing that we're actually silencing a lot of important conversations that we need to have. And what I appreciate about the office and the fact that they had different writers, new writers is that, yeah, sometimes maybe the episode did go too far. But we need to have those conversations. We're not actually going to move the needle forward if everyone's just like, oh, I'm so scared. I don't want to make the right. I don't want to be cancelled. I don't want to be called XYZ. It's like, DEI is not something, it's not, you need to do it intentionally. You need to do it respectfully. But in what way could we ever do this kind of work perfectly? Like the whole point of DEI is understanding that people come from different experience that have different backgrounds from us and opening up ourselves to the idea that we can learn from, we can grow, we can do our own learning about what it is to be someone other than myself and how I can create space for those people. And that's always going to involve mess ups. I mean, I feel as though like when I came into doing D&I, I also had that perfect mentality. And I was like, I don't know if I can touch this. And then I was like, what does that even mean? Like that, I mean, this kind of work, we're always going to have mistakes. We're always going to grow. There's always going to be something new. We need to wrap our minds around. But that for me is exciting because it gives me an opportunity to meet other people, to learn, to like, you know, read about things I never would have thought about before. And I think that's really powerful. 

I love that. I think there's something really strong there about like, DEI is about learning. There is no like perfect point or like perfect model of what DEI looks like. I think the essence of the work we do is to say, we don't know everything. There's no possible world where we do know everything. We just have to keep trying and learning and understanding more about the world around us. And just like to kind of bring it back to the episode, I think one thing that's really interesting is something I guess I hear a lot in the workshops I do and the conversations I have is around language. And I feel like the whole premise of how this episode comes to be about is Michael Scott obviously uses gay as a derogatory term and a slur against groups. And he obviously uses another slur as well, which is very problematic.

(...)

And he uses other slurs in there, like ableist slurs, as well to talk about, you know, you call people these things. And I think there is this trend where, and it has been, you know, I remember in school when people would say, oh, that's so gay. And we'd have all this kind of language. And, you know, there's this idea of like using that identity in a negative way. And I think a lot of people are like, well, I don't mean it to be about that particular person, you know, you say, oh, I don't mean to like say something negative about gay people. But I'm like, unpack it a little bit, like take a step back and really understand the kind of language you're using, but also what it kind of reinforces in your mind about that particular group as well, right?

Absolutely. I think that's so true. One of the sessions that I hosted was all about the power of language. And I think we under we center ourselves a lot when we think about language, which makes sense. We're human. So I mean, our best guess, our experience, our perspective is all rooted in like us as people, which isn't necessarily a bad thing. It's just when you focus so much on yourself and you give yourself no room to recognize, oh, wait, like what I experience, how I perceive this isn't the same way that this other person does. And also language is so, language is so, how can I say this? Not transient, but it's constantly evolving. So terms that can be derogatory can be reclaimed, but it's also very much for the group who reclaimed it. And I think it's about, again, it's about recognizing that all these topics are so nuanced and at the crux of it, it's about understanding that person like, “Hey, like, I totally recognize I'm not part of this group. Like, you know, I want to make sure that I'm referring to you in a way that is respectful and is most importantly what you want”. But I, I feel as though we should spend more time thinking about kind of the evolution of language and how it's, it's not just you say something, that's it. Like, you know, you can intend one thing, but it doesn't really matter about what you intend. It's about what the person receives. And I don't think we focus on that a lot. It's just like, I didn't mean to be offensive. And it's like, but you were, so we need to address that your intention, whatever it was, it didn't land. So that the whole point of communication is it's a two-way process. And so if there's something that gets lost, we need to address it.

Hmm. Yeah. I love that point around intent versus impact. And I remember someone saying like, if you accidentally stepped on someone's foot, you wouldn't apologize by saying, well, you shouldn't put your foot there in the first place. Like what a horrible thing to do. And that is what we do in these situations when we check someone their language and we're like, Oh, I didn't mean it in that way. It's like the same kind of essence of saying, I don't see your pain. I don't see, you know, all of the things that you're telling me in this moment, I'm going to center myself and what I meant in that moment, rather than understanding actually what kind of influence and impact and pain did I cause you through using this language. And it's just words. It's just language. It's not a really big lift to just switch it. It might take a little bit of time because we're like so used to saying things, but I've seen it done. People can change their language. They do it all the time. 

You absolutely can. I'm like, we're talking about self-driving cars. We're talking about headphones that are these little things. I'm like, language, that is accessible. We can all make it happen.

Exactly. And I think there's an interesting bit where obviously Toby goes into Michael Scott's office and he's like, you know, calling him out on using this slur. And he said, you know, Oscar is gay. Oscar is gay. And it's, I guess it's kind of an indication and an emphasis on how language shapes our perception because in that moment, Michael can't even see that Toby is trying to tell him that Oscar is gay. He is only seeing gay as a negative term like, oh, Toby, come on, like, haha, funny, but like, let's stop the jokes now. And Toby's like, why don't you, and he has to say homosexual, which is like such an outdated, like medical term to use to describe gay people. Right. And it's just bizarre that it took so many steps for, for Michael to understand. And also, like the idea that Michael would have known just by looking at him. I think there's a big thing around this about the LGBTQI community of like, you can tell someone's non-binary by looking at them. You can tell someone's a lesbian by looking at them or gay or queer, whatever. It's like, don't think you can.

Yeah. And even like the part that was really cringe as like a queer woman was when Michael is like looking out the window and like, who else is like secretly queer? And then they see Angela pass by and they're like, she's severe. She's harsh. She has to be a lesbian. I'm like. I mean, I mean, even in that one sentence, I was just like, how, how insane is it that we're sitting there just like assuming that to be a lesbian is to be, you know, severe, harsh. Like, it's just, I think again, it's, it's, we have these stereotypes in our head based on, I mean, a lot of it is like media, you know, culture, cultural things that we've seen. And it's just, it takes away the humanness of it. Yeah. Maybe you can have a lesbian woman who's stern, who's harsh or whatever. You could also have a straight woman who's stern or harsh. Like these things, any one group of people, but it's like, we see one example and I feel as though the human intent is to make things as simple as possible and just put people in boxes. So it's like, cool, that's what a lesbian looks like. That's what a gay man looks like. And the idea of having to recognize that, no, there is no set way. It's just an additional mental burden for some people. And I think we just need to get, like, for me, I'm kind of at a point where I'm just like, if you can't take the effort to see people as people, then I don't know, mate, like, I don't know how you're going to navigate this world because, you know, it's just, it's, people aren't that simple. People are complex and nuanced. And I think that's a really fantastic thing.

(...)

Yeah, absolutely. And like, no, no one is one way when it comes to those kind of identities. There's no one way to be gay. There's no one way to be lesbian. There's no one way to be queer. Like, there was so much diversity within that and so much intersectionality, which is obviously another word that's thrown around. And actually, there's a really beautiful moment with Dwight, which I was not expecting because of who Dwight is. And Michael's obviously like, it's rightly or wrongly very sweetly, it's like, you know, I want to know who's gay in the office because I don't want to offend somebody. And Dwight's like, well, you could just, you know, assume that everybody is gay, and then choose not to say anything offensive. And I was like, I feel like that should be a quote or a banner in the front of every DEI workshop. Like, you could just choose not to say something offensive if you want to create a world where you're not offending people. Like, it really is as simple as that. Like, it really can be. 

That moment was really powerful. And you know, I feel like there's a couple of MVPs on this show. Dwight is one of them because I think Dwight is also someone who, when we first meet him, I mean, when I first met him, I was like, Oh, my God, he's like super conservative. Like, he's that problematic coworker who probably will start like, you know, a problematic cult. And over the like, over the show, you recognize that Dwight is very much like this office, these people are so important to him. And he does love these people in a very like, genuine way. Like, on I mean, even if he's like, super stern, and like, you know, acts a bit wacky at times, like, ultimately for him, he's just like, I want to preserve this community at all costs, which can sometimes be ridiculous. And in that moment, you recognize that because he's just like, I don't know, he was able to see people in a way that Michael it took him a really long time to see that. And I think we underestimate that because Dwight is also just he's Dwight. But yeah, that moment was really special. Like, what I love about the office is there's so many episodes where like, I leave it like in tears, either from laughing or just like, just how they take this humor, and then they have these moments of just like, realness and like, these lessons that you couldn't really like, landed in a better way. Because in the midst of all this laughing and like, all these different characters, you're like, Oh, okay, yeah, like, this is beautiful. Like, I have chills just thinking about it. 

And I feel like this episode as well, they offset the kind of intensity of like, the gay witch hunt with what's happening. I know this is a bit of a tangent, but what's happening with Jim and like, Andy and being called big tuna. So you've got the laughter there in terms of, you know, understanding the different contexts in another office. And I thought it was hilarious that they bought, they brought Michael, is it Michael Brown? Is that his name? No, something Mr. Brown, who did the diversity day. So he obviously did the diversity day in the very first episode or second episode of the office. And then you see him in this office with Jim, and then the team doing like his whole hero analogy. And I just thought it was such a lovely, like, throwback. But they also like also say like, you know, there's been like diversity problems in Scranton. So we also have to go through diversity training. And I do think that happens with a lot of businesses, like one person makes a mistake. And then everybody within the whole organization has to do some training on it, which I think is probably a good thing. But also, it's interesting. It takes somebody to make a mistake for that stuff to happen. It's like, actually, why don't we be more proactive and like, get this stuff out of the way before it ends up, you know, offending someone like Oscar?

I couldn't agree more. I think we do. It feels as though D*I is this reactive thing when realistically, it should be proactive. It should be at the heart of everything that we're doing, because it's not just, it's not just about like marketing or PR, it's about how can I create a workforce that brings talent from all backgrounds, but also creates a space where they want to stay. And so it is like, you know, it isn't, it should be an imperative for business leaders, because I'm just like, you won't have a business if you don't have people. And sometimes I think people forget that. I'm like, you can, you can say all that you want about D&I, you can, you know, politicize it and all these other things. But ultimately, it's about your people. And if your people don't feel seen, we're in this, this time frame, or this period of time where people are just like, I don't want to spend the rest of my life working for a company I don't believe in. COVID was a huge kind of reset for a lot of people I imagine, or at least for myself. And it made me recognize that time is limited on earth. And I want to spend my time doing things that align with my purpose and with my values. And I think especially with the Gen Z, that is so true. So it's one of those things where it should just be like proactive, because also it's not just about race or gender or sexual orientation. It touches a whole range of things as well. So yeah, proactive D&I folks.

(...)

Get in the door before it becomes a problem. Like that is a number. I don't try and like problem solve after the issues happen. Like get us in beforehand, we can help you, we can identify those issues before they come become and actually sometimes, you know, people come in and have those proactive sessions. But that's because they know about that particular instance. There'll be so many other instances that you're not completely aware of. Like, you know, there might have been moments throughout the episodes where, you know, Michael Scott is saying all these kind of derogatory slurs and things in the office. But it took that one moment for Oscar to lose his mind about it and be like, no, I'm not going to stand for this. Like this is not okay. And felt personally very uncomfortable with Michael's behavior. Picked up the phone and called, you know, head office. And that's why Jan walks in and you know, you've got the whole the whole all the different branches doing the training. And that's because we know about it. But I think for a lot of organizations, there will be a lot of queer people, there will be a lot of underrepresented, marginalized individuals that don't say anything. So there'll be a lot of things happening without leaders knowing about it. So you might think, okay, I'm going to wait until there's a problem. The problem is likely already there. There's probably already things happening. And then that's when you look at attrition and how staff are leaving. And then you look at like, sentiment and productivity. And if those things are like, a bit lower than you intended, I reckon there's something likely there about like gender discrimination or sexual orientation, discrimination, bias in different forms. So don't wait until you actually know about something. Because I think a lot of the times there'll probably be something there that you're not actually aware of. Because why is someone that is marginalized going to marginalize themselves further by saying, hey, you know, I'm gay. And this is what somebody said to me. And then suddenly, like, you see Jan walk in the office, and she like smiles at Oscar. And it's like the weirdest moment. And Oscar's like, this is so uncomfortable. And I feel like in that moment, I think he's probably thinking to himself, I wish I never told anybody. 

Yeah. And we don't talk about that enough. And that's actually something that I think is really important in terms of, there is this expectation of people from marginalized backgrounds to out themselves. And then to be the ones to correct the culture. What a burden to like come into a place where you're probably not getting paid enough. You like in a moment of like trust and like, this is my identity, I want to like, I want to talk to HR or head office to, you know, let them know that there are some things that aren't okay, I want to do this in a trusted way, and then to have it essentially just like broadcast out. And then on top of that, you then have to do the correcting, the teaching of other people. We put such a burden on marginalized folks to not only call out the instances of discrimination, but then rectify it. And that is something for me that I mean, personally, I've had these instances, and it's so traumatic, and I'm not trying to make light of the word trauma, but to just be in this instance where you have to fix a problem that you didn't create like your existence is just your existence. And yet people are framing this as a problem or something that needs to be called out. And that episode actually, for me really reaffirmed this idea that a lot of people don't because they're scared instances like this are going to happen where they say something and then everyone outs them, treats them differently. They don't feel like they can come to their organizational leaders and be like, hey, this is my identity. So then you have a lot of your workers who just feel as though they have to come in, they have to code switch, or they have to mute themselves, make themselves small in these spaces. And while you're sitting there like, oh, you can tell me anything, you can create this space, like all this other stuff, it's like, but you haven't, you haven't created the framework or the foundation for that.

And that also comes to me, I was on a, I was speaking to someone else about the concept of coming out. And he was referring to Karamo's podcast from Queer Eye. And Karamo talks about how we need to reframe our thinking from coming out to letting in. And the whole concept is about queer people taking that power back. We don't owe, we don't owe it to anybody, let alone organizational leaders, to come out to them, unless we feel as though they are worthy. They've created this space for me to let them into this really important side of myself. And I think again, like, we've kind of over indexed where everyone's like, yeah, yeah, yeah, like, you know, you should be able to tell us this, and you should be able to tell us that as your line manager, you should be able to tell me everything about myself. And it's like, it's not a given, you need to earn that you need to earn my comfort, my like trust and being like, you know what, yeah, like, I just want to let you know, I am queer. And know that like, when you talk about that, it's going to be respected, it's not going to be outed, and you're not going to be treated differently. And I don't think, I think if we can start reframing from coming out to letting in, it'll be a really good exercise, because then it has people reflect on themselves about what have I done? What am I doing? What is the organization doing that someone would feel comfortable coming to me and being like, I'm trans, and like, this is the support that I need?

I love the idea of like, letting in, coming out, as opposed to coming out. Because I think over the over the years, especially since starting my DEI business, I feel like there's been a lot of pressure on myself as an individual that I owe it to people to come out. And that's been a constant battle of you know, you have like, National Coming Out Day, and it becomes this whole big thing. And you're like, so much pressure. And that was something I had to like, deal with over the years. And, you know, it's been gradual that I've let, you know, various people within my close circle network about my identity and about, you know, my queer identity. But that's something that I've decided for myself, and I'm trying to not let people take that away from me. And I think, even within the workplace context, you know, there will be people that are out and proud, and they'll be like, you know, here I am as a gay man, and this is what's happening. And it's like, you know, we're a safe space. But then you're like, actually, if you think about it from an intersectional lens, if you are a queer, non binary, like, all of these different elements of your identity, and you're, you know, a person of color as well, maybe you have a disability, all of those things intersect. And actually, the more you add, the more dangerous and more limitations come about from coming out. So for someone coming out, easy, easy as anything, I mean, it's not easy, I don't want to like minimize coming out, but it will be easier for someone with fewer intersecting identities, because yeah, there's a lot more lens and difficulty that come with having those those different identities come together, because people perceive you differently. You know, we see that in the difference between, you know, gay men, and then lesbian women, right, and how people see them differently and how they come out. And, you know, the perceptions and stereotypes associated with those identities is very limiting, and extremely dangerous. And yeah, I loved the idea of letting in and as opposed to coming out. So I did feel for Oscar in that moment, because I think there's a lot of people that will have experienced that. And I think when I said at the beginning about trigger warning, I feel like that particular moment, I imagine a lot of people can relate to where they've kind of said to somebody, this is what's happening, or this is who I am, this is my identity. And then it comes out and then suddenly everybody knows either becomes gossip, or somebody says it in like a blase moment, not thinking, or they don't even see like, you know, Michael in that moment doesn't see the the weight and the importance of what it means to come out. He's just like, gay pride, like everyone should be proud. And you know, it is what it is. Like, I have no shame. It's like, this isn't about you. 

Say it louder for the folks in the back. It's not about you. I think that's the thing like, and even I have to check myself, I center myself a lot, like being super candid, like I've done a lot of learning about like, understanding trans issues specifically when it comes to trans black women. And I feel as though like, at the beginning, I spent a lot of time like, Oh, I don't want to mess up. Oh, I didn't mean it. And it's like, it's not about you. It's about the people that you're spending time with. It's about your community. It's about making sure that they feel like, like, or that I could be a safe space and that I'm doing my own learning. I'm not putting the burden on them. And I think probably at the risk of oversimplifying, I think if everybody can come to these conversations and just like check their ego at the door, we'd be in such a better place from a societal perspective. Because I just think there's so much like guilt that comes into it. I'm like, what, like, why, like, why do I now need and you see that in Oscar too. Like you see these moments where Michael is like spinning out, everyone is spinning out, acting ridiculous. In Oscar, then like you can see in his face, he's just like, “no, I didn't, I didn't mean it like this. Like I wasn't, no, I understand that you were trying, you didn't intend it”. And so this moment that should have been about him, him feeling like he had a space, he could talk to HR, he could talk to the head office, they would protect him. You know, ideally they would have set up a one-to-one with Michael, if necessary. But even then it's like, why do I need to have a one-on-one? And then from there, just kind of like having the conversations about like, how can we actually create a space where Oscar feels like he can be his best self. And if he wants to come out to everybody else, he could do that. Instead, that moment was ripped away from him. He was outed. The moment for him to kind of reflect was like ripped away from him because he had to spend so much time making this white man feel okay about how uncomfortable he is with him. It's just, it was triggering for me because like, I feel as though you talked about intersectionality and that resonated so much with me. I'm constantly having to balance being Black and being queer because I have to wreck, I need to think about, okay, cool. If I'm in a group of all Black people, I come from a Caribbean family, so my family's Haitian, super religious, super homophobic, and I always have to balance, all right, am I gonna talk about my partner, Sophia, as a partner, as a wife? If I feel like I'm in a community with a lot of like Black people, African people, Haitian people that can be super religious, I do take a moment to pause because I'm like, I don't know if we're gonna have to get into this. I don't really want to try to have a conversation. And it's so funny when I came out, I also had a lot of qualms about am I Black enough? Is it Black to be queer? Which is a whole messed up thing, and we can spend hours talking about that. But these are the conversations people have. It's not just about being queer. And I think what I said earlier about this box mentality, it's like, we see gay and lesbians in a very white way. I haven't seen Black queer women in media until about a couple of years ago. And every time I see it, I moved because I'm like, oh, that's me.(...) Oh, there's other people like this that navigate the fact that they are Black when I was in America, in America, and they have to navigate that racism, that sexism, and the homophobia, but they also have to deal with that from their family side. And that is such an important thing. We can't just put, we center a lot of whiteness and a lot of the mainstream views of things.(...) And intersectionality is so important because queerness, gayness, transness, it's not just white. It's not just cookie cutter. There's so many deviations and specifications within that. And yeah, sorry, now I'm just waffling on, but I just think it is so important that we need to stop burdening these people with these identities to do that education for us and to make us feel okay with how uncomfortable we are. Nah, that's on you.

Yeah, I think there is a lot of centering ourselves in those conversations when it isn't about us, like we said. And I think in the essence of talking about trans identities and the shift in pronouns, for example, but I can imagine this particular scenario in this episode, talking about someone that's trans or non-binary or somebody that wants to change their pronouns or adopt more pronouns, whatever it may be, and someone going, oh, made a mistake. And then suddenly making a song and dance about making a mistake about pronouns and over apologizing, right? And feeding that guilt. And in those moments, it's like, no, no, acknowledge the mistake, apologize, and then just use the correct pronouns moving forward. And I feel like there was that real small moment by the printer that that could have happened between Michael and Oscar, right? Because he says, I'm sorry, I didn't know, let's grab a beer. And that was, I felt like there was a real nice moment with Oscar, but it was the fact that it was done in such a public space. And actually, when I'm thinking about it again, with cameras as well, so it's not just the office, right? This is going to be public for the world to see. So it's not just his office and his colleagues, but actually the whole world. And, you know, maybe he might not have family members that are aware of his sexual orientation and things like that. And I think that's, yeah, there's been, there's been moments where I've been on panels or I've done things and like, they're more public. And because that individual knows my identity, I think they don't always realize that, you know, not all my friends, not all my family have known most now do because of various conversations I've had. But in those moments, it's been like, we've got five gay people on the panel or something. And I'm like, okay, so this is where I come out to people that I don't know strangers on the internet. 

My grandmother doesn't have a clue! That was definitely me. I was like, it's like ripe age of like 28. And I was like, I haven't come out to my grandmother yet. And then like, someone made a comment because I'd been with my partner for so long. But I was like, again, you can't take it for granted. And I think that's the thing it's like, and I'm tying it to D&I, but I just feel as though like it is so important because it is a journey. There is no end point. Similar to like when we're talking about coming out when we're talking about recognizing someone's identity creating space. It's not just like, cool, you see me with a girlfriend, that's it. I'm out. That's your assumption. No, it's like, people go through like phases of like coming out. We're all I mean, speaking on my behalf, I feel as though I'm regularly having to come out because depending on the circumstance that I'm in, I have to be like, okay, cool. I'm talking about Sophia as my wife. This person probably didn't recognize it. I don't wear my ring, not because of any issue other than the fact that like I've gained weight, it doesn't fit anymore. So I've had so many instances where people are like, I didn't even know you were married. So it's just one of those things where it's like, I feel as though queer people are at least in my experience, like we constantly have to go through that process of, am I in a space where I can actually be honest about the fact that I'm with a woman or that I am trans? And especially when you talk about like office situations, like Christmas parties, for example, when you think about people bringing their partners, if people were to take a step back, do you think that someone who like hasn't publicly come out in the office, do you think that you created a space where they feel like they could bring their partner and it wouldn't be like a big thing? Like these are the things that I think organizational leaders need to think about, because for them, it's a privilege that they're like, I can bring my partner and it's not going to be anything. That's not the key. Yeah, it's not a second thought. 

Oh, of course. Of course I'll bring my partner. This is my partner.

Meanwhile, you know, and I think about this in other terms too, like when you think about poly relationships, when you think about open relationships, like how are we creating spaces for all the different types of diversity out there? And I think if people, organizational leaders really took a step back and were like, “yeah, maybe not”, then I think we could have the conversation and people could start implementing processes, working with like people like you and me, Sara, like from a D&I perspective and like, cool, what are the things that we can do? What are the changes that we can so that we can truly create an inclusive culture, not just, you know? Yeah, cool. We have like five queer people. We have six South Asian people and we have like two Black people.

Oh, goodness. We are coming towards the end, but there's one more question and I feel like we can't not talk about it, which is the kiss between Michael and Oscar. We talked about this briefly before we jumped on the podcast. And you actually told me something I didn't really know. So I'd love for you to just re-explain like that scene to our listeners.

(...)

Yeah. So in the calamity of this episode, truly calamity, at the end, they have this like unofficial brown bag where they bring everyone together again for like Oscar to talk about his queerness or for Michael to make himself feel better and be like, this person is gay. We are okay with it. In a weird roundabout way, there's that scene where like in order to prove his okayness with gay, his okayness with gayness, he kisses Oscar. Now we, I've been reading articles about this episode and that kiss was not scripted. That was something that the actor Steve Carell did in the moment impromptu. And now, I mean, not only is that scene so cringe, but it is like really funny because you're just like, what the hell are you doing? Stop. But it made me think about just like the wider culture of media and entertainment because we have gone through this whole period where we have a lot of actresses and actors talking about how they were forced to do things on set that they didn't want to do. And, you know, for me, that scene, I'm like, if Steve Carell had done that with a female co-star, I don't think that we would have, it would have made it onto the scene or made it into publishing or airing. But again, it just goes into that idea that when you're a queer person, it almost feels as though like you can take these hits and it's just funny. A man kissing a gay man is funny, even though it's clear that that man did not want to do it.

And I think again, it just, for me, it was this moment where I was reflecting on why queerness can sometimes feel like the butt of a joke and how painful and traumatic that is that you think that it's funny, sexual harassment is funny, because that's what that was. Like, if I had a random man just, if I had my boss try to kiss me in front of the whole office, like that is not okay. And, you know, and I think it also, for me, it reflects on, it makes me think again about kind of that community aspect of it when you're thinking about inclusive cultures. It's not just the top, it's also your colleagues, right? And no one said anything. No one was like, "Ah, all right, Michael, cut it out. Stop it. Like this is ridiculous." Not even HR. And I think again, it's that idea that like, people want to relinquish their responsibility. People want to claim that they're allies without actually doing any ally type work. And I think it's so important that when we think about these spaces, when we think about humor, when we think about content, like how something that's seemingly innocuous, that's just done to make the episode entertaining or things like that, like that is problematic in and of itself. In that moment when I read that article, I was just like, they didn't actually recognize the fact that what they were doing is like being, like harassing this person. Because I don't even know if that actor, I don't know if that actor actually is gay, but, you know, it's just one of those things where it's just like, we really need to start thinking about how we view people from marginalized backgrounds. It's not just, we're not the butts of jokes. The fact that you think gayness is funny, like, I mean, is problematic in and of itself. So yeah, I just, rewatching that scene, it was cringy, but it made me cringe for a lot of other reasons. Because I was just like, this is so problematic on so many terms, because we don't take into account that queer people can be harassed as well, or regularly harassed and erased. Because it's like, I was just, it was bants, right? I grabbed your ass, it was bants.(...) No.(...) 

I hate that word, banter.

(...)

When I moved here, I was like, what is this bants thing? I don't think it's cool.

(...)

It is not cool. I can tell you that much. It is not not cool at all. I did not know that about that, that scene, which is just, it adds a lens to it that I wasn't aware of. Yeah, and it's just, it's such a shame that that happened. And I think you said earlier about if that was a different type of person in that room, like a woman, would Steve Carell have still gone ahead with that type of behaviour? Probably not. But why is it okay when suddenly it's a man and a gay man? I don't actually think that Oscar's character is gay in real life. But I think that's kind of by the by, in terms of this particular scene. It doesn't matter in that particular context, whether he's not, it wasn't really part of the script or part of Oscar's awareness in terms of what was happening. So yeah, and it's almost like at the time laughing about it, because I thought it's part of the script. And now I'm like, oh, it's really awkward to watch, because it's almost like you're cringing to do two levels. One, because of what's happening in this scene, but also in terms of outside of that, this is a man, Steve Carell, as an actor doing this to another man who's like, what the hell is happening here? 

I didn't sign up for this, like, consent is very real, like, on like multiple levels. And I think, again, like, you know, for another episode, but I think even when it comes to the idea of consent, it almost feels as though it's not held as importantly as it would for like hetero couples. And it for me, that's like really problematic, like, it almost makes it seem as though like queer people don't have the right to like want to protect themselves, have the right to like respectfully be engaged with like have the right to set the boundaries for how they're engaged. Almost as though we're like a lesser people. And that for me is just incredibly problematic. So yeah.

This has been such a wonderful conversation, Whitney, I'm so grateful that you came on to the show. I've, I've just wanted to keep talking, to be honest.

I think I was like, what's what's work? I don't know what you're talking about. This is work. Like, let's do this.

Righting the world's wrongs through the US office, I think is quite quite a way to do it. So I'm enjoying it. Oh, yeah, hell yeah. I'm here for it. Sign me up. All episodes.

(...)

Well, something I've asked my listeners is if they want to hear back from one of our guests, just to let me know. And if you want us to do a specific episode, then do let us know. So we'll have information in the description of how you can actually message us and get in touch in terms of the other guests you want the episodes you want us to cover, because there's a lot of content to unpack in this series. So there is plenty plenty content to go through. So I don't think we'll be stuck for things to talk about.

But overall, just thank you so much to Whitney and thank you to all our listeners for taking time to listen to today's conversation. We hope you enjoyed it. Always welcome any feedback. And we look forward to seeing you at the next one. Thanks, everyone.